Fair, and glad we can agree Augustine didn't fully hold Reformed perseverance. Do you read the same descriptions of varied graces and varied states of man's grace within that writing though too? Or just the parts you read as seeds to your theology? Seeds is a fair word maybe, but only if you cherry pick it. But Catholics emphasize that Augustine held full Catholic theology; his doctrine of grace is quite literally the Catholic doctrine of grace. The Council of Orange (529) codified his anti-Pelagian writings as binding teaching. Specifically: Grace precedes all good will (Orange Canon 5 = Augustine) Even the beginning of faith is gift (Orange Canon 6 = Augustine) Free will cooperates with grace, doesn't initiate it (Orange Canon 7 = Augustine) Perseverance is a separate gift requiring continual divine help (Orange + Augustine throughout) Augustine's doctrine of justification is also quite literally the Catholic doctrine of justification, full stop. He holds: Justification is making righteous, not merely declaring righteous (transformative, not forensic). Justification involves real interior renewal by infused grace. Justification can be increased through cooperation with grace. Justification can be lost through mortal sin Final perseverance is a separate gift unknowable in this life. Every single one of those is Catholic teaching. Calvin even had to say Augustine was wrong on justification because he categorized regenerating grace under sanctification, which is the Catholic move, not the Reformed move. Calvin specifically faults Augustine for not separating justification and sanctification the way the Reformed system requires. (Institutes 3.11.15) Augustine doesn't just hold "seeds" of Catholic theology on these doctrines. He holds the substance. His framework on grace, justification, merit, free will, perseverance, and sacramental causation is the framework the Catholic Church formally adopted at Orange, developed at Trent, and teaches in the Catechism today. He is the most cited Father in the entire Catechism.

I have to read the quote in the context Augustine sets within the same book (De Correptione et Gratia). He distinguishes regenerating grace from the gift of perseverance, without folding them into one. He also describes different categories of people in a corresponding fashion: the regenerate who genuinely receive grace and fall away, the predestined who persevere to the end, and those who never receive grace at all. He also explicitly says we can't tell which group we belong to in this life. The Reformers collapsed 'the truly regenerate' = 'the predestined' = 'those who can have assurance' into one. Augustine kept them distinct, and warned of presumption as well. Claiming Augustine held Reformed theology is a bit wild to me. He affirmed the papacy. He affirmed apostolic succession. He affirmed the sacraments as means of grace. He affirmed prayers for the dead. He affirmed the intercession of the saints. He affirmed Mary's perpetual virginity and sinlessness. He affirmed free will cooperating with grace. Even B.B. Warfield (Reformed) said, "The Reformation was the ultimate triumph of Augustine's doctrine of grace over Augustine's doctrine of the Church." That's a Reformed theologian admitting the Reformers kept Augustine's doctrine of grace and rejected his doctrine of the Church.

Augustine (in the same writings): "If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, 'I have not received,' because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God that he had received." Reformed perseverance (to my knowledge) holds that the truly justified cannot fall away, and if someone appeared justified and fell, they were never truly justified, and further that the elect can have assurance now, in this lifetime. How are these the same?

I imagine an effortless judo style takedown shortly after this.

I may have just poorly implemented something. The torch is held by Maria. Did the zap not go to her? Looks like her address is [email protected]. Typing her name should have autoselected her npub. I'll investigate asap.

🔥 I just passed the torch "First Torch" to · ⚡ 210 sats. "You've been officially challenged to pass the zap!" https://torchlite.shakespeare.wtf/torch/first-torch #torchlite

One of the things I love about the Catholic Church is how it regards other Christians as brothers and sisters genuinely seeking the truth, doing their best with what they've received. There's a posture of charity baked in and an assumption of good faith. It rarely comes back the other way. More often than I can count, well intentioned Christians from other traditions have called me to repent of my Catholicism. While anecdotal, the slew of Protestant churches I grew up in turned me agnostic. I left the doom and gloom. My agnosticism eventually led me to assent of intellect and will. I converted because I grew to see and believe the Catholic Church holds the deposit of faith, a fullness of faith, and a faith that makes more reasonable sense out of the mysteries. I found hope. I can also admit that I see some similar behavior from Catholics online from time to time. This 'false gospel' accusation (from both sides) rarely bears fruit. Love does. I don't say this to score a point. The asymmetry is just worth noticing. Charity that flows in one direction is still charity, but a conversation takes two. I'll never call for a Christian to repent for what they believe. But I will always celebrate when anyone comes home to the Catholic Church.

I love the Jesus as the door analogy; "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." from Matthew. The door is Jesus. A gift we don't deserve and didn't build. It stands open to us before we ever raise a hand. But the knock is still asked of us. Real. Required. Ours. Jesus doesn't say the door opens to those who don't knock. We don't build the door when we knock. We don't open it ourselves. The knocking is grace-enabled response to grace already given. It's grace all the way down. And our cooperation is real.

Agreed. Obedience doesn't earn something God must pay. Catholics don't claim that as the case. But rather that obeying Jesus' commands can help bring us closer to Him and is formative to faith. Obedience (grace enabled) is even a great starting place for someone struggling in belief and faith from the start. Scripture appears to hold both grace as gift and obedience as required ("if you love me, keep my commandments"). Catholic theology holds that tension rather than collapse it. Even our obedience is grace working in us. e.g. Hebrews 5:9 "he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him" seems to place salvation downstream of obedience. Not downstream as in earned, but as in received through and after. Even the call for me to "Repent and put your full confidence in Christ's goodness." seems to imply that humans can be commanded, can respond, and that response is required. We agree that grace is not merited by our response.

Thanks 🙏 Framing works as just the result assumes restoration is a single completed event we passively receive. The Catholic view doesn't separate it into a binary. We don't cause grace. We step into it, cooperate with it, respond to it. God's initiative is first, grace is unmerited at the start, but he commands us to respond. This to me is the good news of the Gospel, and it's hopeful. It's why it's worth sharing. Restoration is a participatory event. Turning back to Christ, repenting, receiving the sacraments, cooperating with grace aren't downstream evidence of a restoration that already fully happened in a single moment. They are the ongoing restoration. Justification in Catholic theology isn't a one-time legal verdict, it's a journey of us being made righteous, which unfolds across a lifetime.

🔥 I just passed the torch "Nostr Hero Torch" to · ⚡ 21 sats. "⚔️" https://torchlite.shakespeare.wtf/torch/nostr-hero-torch #torchlite

🔥 I just passed the torch "Zap Wars Torch" to · ⚡ 2,100 sats. "https://ditto.pub/" https://torchlite.shakespeare.wtf/torch/zap-wars-torch #torchlite

Hope TN is treating you well! 🤙 It's just a gamified chain of zaps. Pass before it expires. Just an experiment as I was playing with shakespeare today. Sign In and it should show you the torches you hold on the homepage. View it, pass it (with a zap) to anyone you please and sign the message. Each pass has to be a higher zap. If not passed before expiration, the torch chain ends. https://torchlite.shakespeare.wtf