If I understand you correctly that is exactly what I want too. NIP-29 is already that beacon of relay-powered centralization in amidst a Nostr decentralized ecosystem. If you haven't read or understood NIP-29 I forgive you, because the NIP text itself doesn't explain much. If you can come up with a more pronounceable name for the concept I would like to make a website explaining it. Please help. The idea is that each of NIP-29 groups can have chat, forum threads, live voice/video or whatever else (or just one of each), with moderation enforced by the relay on behalf of the group owner. If you read the discussion I referenced above it is me and trying to come up with a system for having a parent group and multiple children groups, which would be like a Discord server. So you could either have a single group with everything in it, like Telegram (which I prefer), or a bunch of sub-groups, like Discord. Please send valuable input if you have. You also describe an easy to set-up relay for communities. I don't know if you have seen https://github.com/fiatjaf/pyramid, but that's what I'm trying to do there (the setup specifically is the part I'm most proud of, because it is as simple as it gets and it doesn't use Docker). There is a lot to do there and I'm taking suggestions from anyone. Please send yours if you like it, or join our NIP-29 room (link in the README).

Having to encrypt a message 4 times and the fact that relays only see a random blob from a random pubkey being sent to them makes it very annoying indeed. I think the spam can be cut on the relay side if relays require AUTH (from the real sender) when accepting the gift-wrap, but that defeats its purpose, so maybe we should just get rid of gift-wrapping entirely. https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/1647 would fix having to do expensive encrypt/decrypt calls to bunkers, but introduces complexity. I think the expectation of having DMs inside Nostr clients was stupid from day one.

What do you mean by a "full-on community messenger"? Discord-style with multiple rooms? Flotilla works like that today (using this same NIP-29 protocol for the rooms) by treating every group in the same relay as part of the same broad community. But we were also talking about another way to link groups together some days ago:

No, it would be a waste of time because each relay might have a completely different form, it might require some weird form of login before a group is created, it might only allow forms to be created in a full moon etc. That's what I want and expect, at least. But groups.fiatjaf.com is an old abandoned relay anyway, no one should be using it. Maybe I'll fix it someday, update and nuke previous groups.

I was going to say https://github.com/fiatjaf/vnak, but I realized it doesn't really count as a client.

Grimoire might not be the most pretty, might not have the best onboarding, might not be the most usable, might not be the lightest or the most native, might not be finished or stable, might not have a GIF keyboard, but it is the most important Nostr client.

They got a really really big bag of money from the Filecoin ICO.

Sorry, I don't think I tagged anyone. I hadn't even talked to Pablo about it until yesterday. The only thing that happened was that was hating on it and running a smear campaign against me because of it some months ago.

This is so stupid.

Sorry, I just went to https://fevela.me/?r=lockbox.relays.land and I saw your and 's notes. What is not working?

Oh, I see. Could have been that. But I think the idea there was to standardize NIP-23 syntax (because "Markdown" is not a standard) without breaking it. But the syntax described there is pretty close to Djot already, i.e. a trimmed down very strict variant of Markdown. If we were to do NIP-23 from scratch today I think Djot would be a better pick. It has a bunch of libraries already anyway, and was made by the guy who created Pandoc, the most experienced person in the world of markup formats, to be the simplest and more lightweight format.

What is the NostrMarkup? The one that is a variant of Asciidoc? I tried to write an Asciidoc parser from scratch, it was too hard. There are no other parser implementations out there besides the "reference" in Ruby (transpiled to JS as asciidoctor.js). All the other you find on GitHub are illusions, vastly incomplete, because the Asciidoc standard is a mess and way too bloated, it assumes and HTML parser/renderer in many many places, it isn't suitable for a serious protocol. I've joined the official Asciidoc discussion board and asked questions and made suggestions. The reactions I got served to reinforce that position by a lot, it actually made me think things are only going to get worse.

30023 is still Markdown (whatever that means, it's not a standard really). NIP-23 didn't change.